Is it true that they now have a committee to vet playscripts?
Yes, for City Hall.
There’s a whole committee to do it! I feel that’s really demeaning! How could we be in a situation like this? How have we come to such a level? I mean, there’s absolutely no trust at all in Malaysians being adult enough or open-minded enough to be able to discuss certain things? To watch plays that deal with issues?
Do you think the reason why you didn’t get permits for at least two plays was a form of retribution because of the views that you had as a journalist as well as a playwright?
I dare not even begin to speculate! I mean, it will just be speculation. I wouldn’t know, right?
Either in the newsroom or in theatre, were you ever warned about going too far or that there would be repercussions if you continued to...?
I did of course get memos and warnings from my bosses about my work but they never warned me about my theatre involvement. There were never any threats from any quarter. Advice, yes.
So, for the most part, you’ve been able to do what you’ve been doing with some amount of manoeuvring but without being threatened in any way?
Not directly-lah. But [pause], there may be some inference one could draw from the fact that [the decision to deny the staging permit for] The Coffin is Too Big for the Hole came after 1984 Here and Now [was staged].
In your own experience, which has had more impact on society? Journalism or theatre? Which has been more effective for you as an agent of social change?
[Laughs] I think the reach of theatre is not wide enough. I mean, there’s only so many people that you can get through to. There’s no doubt that the mass media has a wider reach. But then again because of the constraints, the effect is still somewhat limited-lah. I mean, if your editors are the ones who determine what can be published and they prefer to play safe, it’s very hard. The potential for change that you want to bring about is really quite limited.
You do a play, a lot of the time, the people who come to see it are also, what they call, ”the converted” in any case. So, you are not really changing minds, you know. Unless you write in Malay. But then if you wrote plays in Malay, your plays would actually be more closely scrutinised because the authorities are aware that it will reach out to larger audiences, so they are more cautious about that.
But, having said that, I write a play, I get it published. Sometimes, it gets picked up and it’s taught at the universities.
As [We Could **** You,] Mr Birch was?
As Mr Birch was. I don’t know about the other two. Quite a number of universities have taught it, are still teaching it. And sometimes, they invite me to go and give talks to the students. And that’s one way of reaching out to them. I hope-lah that in their reading of the play, they might find some kind of awareness-lah.
How many plays have you written in total?
Oh, quite a number. But, some of them were when I was very young. Some of them quite forgettable, or rather, I’d like to forget them-lah [laughs].
Quite a number have also been broadcast over RTM. I sent [in] quite a lot during my undergraduate days. They were paying a princely sum of RM75 a play.
Wah, not bad for those days!
RM75, ah? It was enough to buy cigarettes and beer-lah [laughs].
Do you think there are any common challenges that you face in both journalism and in theatre?
Censorship.
Do you think that’s getting worse?
[Pauses to think] Yes. We just said there’s this committee that’s vetting scripts. That’s terrible.
What is even worse actually is self-censorship. And that is the biggest challenge for anybody, especially for journalists. Quite hard to overcome.
Have you ever self-censored?
I think I must have although I very much tell myself not to. You know, somehow or other, in an unconscious manner, having been so conditioned to what things are like, yes, I think I would have.
Without being conscious of it?
Yes.
Your play, 1984: Here and Now was seen as being rather controversial because it was about the state versus citizens, about racial inequality, the brain drain, and inter-racial relations. What compelled or inspired you to write it?
The contradictions that I saw in the country at that time. The inequality. The culture of fear. You remember how it was in the 1980s. And also, the arrogance of power. Um, Bills used to be just bulldozed through Parliament, you know. Of course, the institutionalisation of racial discrimination. That figures very prominently in the play. So does Big Brotherism.
Was there anything in particular that you or your family experienced that was the starting point for what you were writing, or was it an amalgamation of different experiences?
An amalgamation and I saw it more clearly when I came to KL. In Penang, it wasn’t so sharp.
But in Penang itself, I did have personal experience of the effects of the pro-bumiputera policy. When I graduated, I wanted to pursue my Master’s. But I could not afford to do it unless I could get a tutorship in the university [USM]. So, I applied for it but I didn’t get it.
But what I couldn’t reconcile with was why I didn’t get it when I was top in my Humanities class. I was also the winner of the Gold Medal for Top Literature Student.
So, it was obvious-lah, you know. That was my direct experience of that policy.
What about your children? Have they had to experience discrimination growing up?
Um, not in big ways, no. One is a girl about 15-plus, and the other a 14-year-old boy. I mean, ya, they do tell me some stories now and then but there have been no real major incidents.
Do you think things have changed in Malaysia since you wrote 1984 and since it was staged in Malaysia?
Ah, ya, it has, of course because people are materially better off now. And I think the government got it right in the sense that they realised that economics was the basis of a lot of things. It was very important to make sure that people became well off, ya. And that would help to lessen the friction between the races. As long as you can keep the economy afloat and prosperous, you won’t get these tensions. But, as you’ve seen on a couple of occasions when the economy dipped, these tensions have risen to the surface.
The drive is constantly on to make people happy through means that also distract them from the real issues. Hence we’ve seen the rise of consumerism, the sprouting of megamalls, the providing of mass entertainment, huge celebratory spectacles. We partake of the fun and games like the Romans of ancient times did when their emperors gave them chariot races and gladiator fights. That way political leaders also get maximum exposure.
But, the thing now is that what they’ve also done is they’ve made Malaysians more materialistic than ever. So much so that I think we are losing sight of things like spiritual development, moral development, intellectual development, values!
Do you sense that things are changing for the country because we have a new Prime Minister?
Changing in what sense, ah? Changing is a very big word. Which areas are you talking about?
Are things improving? Are we, at least, starting to look at spiritual, moral and intellectual development?
Our Prime Minister is trying to get us in that direction but at the same time, I’m sure he still has to juggle it with material prosperity, otherwise, problems are going to occur. Groups that are dependent on support and patronage will start knocking on his door.
By and large, Malaysians are still intellectually shallow. The push towards consumerism has made it worse. Shopping and having fun are what interest Malaysians more than the need to acquire culture. Even as I say that the media needs to address issues, I also realise that many people don’t really want to discuss them or are not interested at all.
They’re afraid or they don’t care. Or they’ve been conditioned to accept things as they are. Our education system has been extremely effective in indoctrinating our children from the moment they enter school.
As for racial relations, on the surface, it now looks to have improved, ya. On the surface, it looks as if we are a happy family. But [long pause], at a deeper level, if you were to, for example, ask university students of a particular race, let’s say a Malay student, to name you a non-Malay friend of theirs, or vice-versa, you’d be surprised that they would be quite hard put to give you a name.
I think racial polarisation has still not been lessened. We are a far cry from the good old days when Malays would sit down with non-Malays to break bread together regardless where. Nowadays, if you invite your Malay friends to your home to have a meal with you, I’m not quite sure that they will accept. There’s a wariness.
So, race relations have not really improved?
I don’t think it’s improved in real terms. I mean, those non-Malays who have it good, the captains of industry and what have you, are still having it good. Any talk about the New Economic Policy, as you saw recently during the Umno Youth Assembly, still raises negative feelings and divides the races.
But, why do we still have a policy like discounts for Bumiputeras buying houses? I mean, the irony here is that, if you have a house that costs a few million [chuckles], you have Bumiputera multi-millionaires buying these houses, and they are enjoying what is it now, a 7% discount? It doesn’t add up, you know.
The metaphor I invoke is this — Our fathers and we helped to build this house. Why are we still considered tenants?
That feeling is still very much floating around among people like me. And that has not disappeared after all these years.
The sense that non-Malays are immigrants?
Yes, yes, that you are still an immigrant race. That there are certain things that you are not entitled to. Again, that doesn’t add up as far as I’m concerned. There’s something wrong with that equation. We were born in this country. We helped to build it.
Do you think art imitates life or is it the other way round?
That’s a big question [laughs]. It can happen either way. Give me a specific example of what art you mean.
Well, your plays, for example.
My plays are a reflection of the reality I see around me. So, in that sense it would be art imitating life to a certain extent. I enhance it a bit, exaggerate it a bit. Such is the way of dramaturgy.
Does life imitate art? I mean if you were a prophet writing art, and your prophesies came true, then you might say, life imitates art [laughs]! I’m not a prophet. I’m an observer, and I put down, in as honest a way as I can, and in a way that I believe to be right, what I see around me.
I’m actually writing a new play.
Are you, now? What’s it called?
It’s called The Fall of Singapura. It’s based on the Sejarah Melayu. Actually, only about two-and-a-half pages of the Sejarah Melayu. But I’ve extended it into a full-length play. It’s near completion.
It’s based on that famous story about Singapura dilanggar todak [Singapore attacked by swordfish]. I’ve taken that episode and meshed it with the episode of the fall of Singapura when Majapahit invaded it and destroyed it.
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